Reply to infinite:

We don't need any immigrantsd to do any labor, and if all that qualifies is a college degree, then we don't need that either.

It appears that you think that Mexicans have a right to walk in and take whatever they want.

Our government only cares about cheapening labor and causeing problems, while stealing our rights in the process.

Try helping the system of poor, born in the USA, fifth generation Americans first, before you dillute U.S. citizen's value by shipping in a bunch of lazy weasals.

I watch Mexicans work on occasion, and the bosses generally leave them alone, because they are cheap labor. They don't work as hard or well as Americans do, and they are createing social problems everywhere they go.

Time to invite some good breeding stock into the country, and time to vote the two party system out that put them here.

You ignore the problems, and keep your mouth's shut. Good for Washington clowns, and lazy state government clowns, but not for real Americans.

Reply to infinate: Just because your government sold you out, and you were too spineless to prevent it, does not in any way mean that you can come here and dillute our labor. You don't have a right to be here as spineless sell-outs that say "see" to everything, then when it is screwed up say,"no we had notheing to do wiff it".

Clearly we do not need any cheaper labor, and if companies and unkle swine claim we do, then they can pay for all of it with their money, not mine. Anyway, if it gets much worse, you will not be here, and the legal ones may want to identify themselves as such or they will be considered as part of the problem as well. Ourt government needs to go first, then you can pay for them down in Mexico, until we find them there. Then I suspect that you will return the favor to our government skum and protect them. NOT!! You would turn on the very people giving you a job that you don't even need. You know very well that they are using mexican maggots to dillute our value as U.S. citizens. You may want to leave soon,because this country is failing, and some of us intend on holding the swine that stole our rights and money accountable. You would just be food along the trail for us to eat in the process. The Mexican children are good eating, I hear.

Another fallacy which I would like to address is that which many allude to, but fail to understand it in meaning. The term “American” throughout history has been changed to mean something else not pertaining to simply nationality. To be an American is not just to have been born within certain geographical coordinates, but rather is it to reflect a series of values. Thus anyone who reflects American values is an American. On this set scope, to compare the meaning of the term American to the term Canadian or Mexican is illogical. True, people who are just born in the US are deemed Americans, but are they really only Americans due to birth venue? I claim that by uniform and parallel logic they are not just Americans simply because they’re born in the US; for if that were true no one born in the US could ever be un-American. But we all know that such is not true. A native born citizen maybe un-American, and a foreign native maybe be American. Thus I conclude that it is the reflection of American values which makes the hard-working undocumented students are deemed American. It is their reflection of American values for the American dream which makes them as American you and I.

This goes to Robert Kunferman:
You must not know how to read between the lines, ha? You must not be paying any attention at all, ha? Your post alluding to European immigration law is completely counter productive to your side f the argument. The DA would the exactly the same as you claim a better law does. The DA will take the elite and productive and not the deformed and sick. The DA will allow for documentation only after having graduated or having served in the armed forces. Graduating from college would automatically qualify the graduate as productive or skilled (as you claim them). In order to serve the armed forces one must not suffer from any physical or psychological abnormalities; did you know that even if you’re superman, but have diabetes you’re not allowed to serve: thus disqualifying them as undesirably or nobodies (as you claim them). As to your argument claiming that such migration is founded out of greed, that is completely false. People have to leave their countries of origin because the US has raped their land and people. Take for example El Salvador, Nicaragua, Chile, Guatemala, Panama, Argentina, Egypt, Iran, Korea, Zaire, Laos, Vietnam, The Dominica Rep, Bolivia, Indonesai, Brazil, Ghana, Greece, and Cambodia all have been countries where the US has raped and ravaged people, governments, and resources. You have learned to devalue a human life all for the sake of not wanting to let your dollar go to waste? Well any reasonable person following logic will tell you that that’s true greed driven senses. As to your closing argument—if it were to be considered and argument at all; it is completely unfounded and clearly an ignorant rant from an uneducated single-sourcing bitter chauvinist. Sadly, your whole argument falls… sorry : )

First and foremost, if you have not read all post, please don’t comment. Secondly, it appears that the argument opposing the passage of the DA is based on misplaced responsibility. I think that many people assume that the DA will grant free rides or give some sort of an advantage to undocumented students, but the truth is that i won’t. Based on people's posts, it appears that they dislike the idea of paying for someone else's education when that some one is undocumented. But such idea is based upon false presumptions. The DA places responsibility on eligible undocumented students, to rightfully own up in a path of civil responsibility. It never grants anyone a free ride at someone else's expense. If you feel that the DA will make you responsible for paying an undocumented student’s education, such is a wrongful presumption, based upon illusive and fallacious grounds which are no where near the text of the DA. So please before you open your mouth read!

Dennis, we are NOT being granted a free education, by any means. Apparently you haven't taken the time to separate fact from fiction either, so kindly abstain from making judgments based on lies. If you could explain why you think that, then maybe we can explain to you why it's not true, based on the text of the Dream Act itself. Or you could refuse to see the truth and be the smaller person.

You folks seem to have a glass half empty point of view on this issue. Think positively. The glass is half full. These'young patriots', these 'hardworking immigrant students' possess a free education bestowed upon them through the generosity of American taxpayers. Truly remarkable. Now ask yourself if the Mexican government and it's taxpayers would grant a free education to an American who entered the country and remained there illegally. I think we both know the answer to that.

SunMB: "I DO NOT agree with this, sorry. I pay A LOT of taxes and I do not think it is fair they go to tuition for illegal immigrants -- I have my own kids to get through college. This is CrAZy and I don't understand why this petition was tacked onto a petition for FAUX NEWS to stop attacks on Barak Obama."

LAST TIME: Why do you seem to think your taxes go towards funding our education? Exactly where in the text of the bill do you see it saying we're getting free money from anyone? Stop going by assumptions and actually research something before you complain about it.

Second of all, we pay taxes too, so get off your tax-paying high horse. Unlike you, we're paying into a Social Security pool we might not even get to use in the future. In essence, we're giving YOU free money, so you have no right to complain here.

For those of us who can even go to school right now, we're paying it out of our own pockets, unlike kids like yours, who get to have Uncle Sam pay for them. Even in Dream passes, whether we qualify or not (and most of us would), we STILL wouldn't be eligible for federal financial aid, so your kids still have way more of an advantage. So do your research next time.

To "A dream Deferred" & the need to pass the federal Dream Act for advancement of illegal immigrants, may be added from the Hughes poem, "Let America Be America Again" (as excerpted by Ebony):
"Let America be America again/ Let it be the land it used to be/ Let it be the pioneer on the plain, seeking a home where he himself is free. (Refrain - America never was America to me).
"Let America be the dream that dreamers dreamed/ Let it be that great strong land of love, where never kings connive nor tyrants scheme that any man be crushed by one above. (Refrain: It never was America to me).
"Oh, let America be America, AGAIN!/ The land that never has been yet & yet must be the land where [everyone] is free./ The land that's mine - The poor man's [black man's], Indian's ME!/ Who made America - Whose sweat & blood, whose faith & pain/ Whose hand at the foundry, whose plow in the rain/ Must bring-back our mighty dream again!"
I've paraphrased "every man" by [everyone], to include both sexes, and "Negro's" by [black man's], for transcending to "ME", or the "me" of us all, just as Hughes thereby identified with "the sick, the poor, the depraved & the tired" in another of his poems, "Litany", ending, "Gather-up in the arms of your love/ Those who expect no love from above", his here & now emphasis for our peace & our happiness (not "by & by").

I DO NOT agree with this, sorry. I pay A LOT of taxes and I do not think it is fair they go to tuition for illegal immigrants -- I have my own kids to get through college. This is CrAZy and I don't understand why this petition was tacked onto a petition for FAUX NEWS to stop attacks on Barak Obama.

Now, like I have told other non-reading activists: Go read immigration law for European countries and the first thing you will notice is that when they do allow immigrants in(skilled only), there is no wage problem because by law they have to get paid the same as their citizen Germans, French, Swiss, etc. And, they do not allow unskilled nobodies into the country at all. Period. Now, go in the corner and think why that may be, and realize that what benefits government and business does not benefit labor.

This allows them to give refuge status to those that will be killed if they are deported or returned to their respective countries.

Try reading for once in your lives, and don't just follow what corporations and lazy government swine want as more problems for us workers to pay for.

These people cum here for greed, not any other reason. Not to leave persecution or for fear, but for pure greed, and it is not in the least bit dangerous crossing into our country, but try going the other way once.

Ask for you university education money back, and ask that your high schools be closed for how dumb you all turned out. What a waste it is trying to educate you everyday. It will take you five minutes to read immigration law layman policies for Germany, and France.

Those of you who want illegals here do not work for a living, and most likely never have, and never will. Just fly to Mexico if you want to see Latinos. Don't be surprised if they blow a whistle in your ear when you are trying to enjoy a drink.

He is an American. A South American. Mexican immigration is a tool to cheapen labor in the United States, and both parties want cheap labor, except where it applies to their jobs.

Funny how that works. Nothing new here. Now let the boy go back to his America before he procreates here.

Robert, great video. You were referenced on the dailykos website today.

I COMPLETELY agree with you that the system itself is the root of the problem, and is in dire need of an overhaul, but you and I both know that isn't happening anytime soon. I believe the system should be more merit-based, and less family- and luck-based as it is now, to encourage intellectual diversity. So in the meantime, am I just supposed to sit and rot? Let my knowledge and education go to waste? And I know this is coming: No, I cannot go and apply my skills elsewhere, b/c everything I've based my education and life on is here.

I agree about the root of the problem, but in the meantime there has to be a solution for the subproblems at hand. It's inherently unfair to punish us for a decision we were not allowed to make for ourselves. We are being held responsible for decision WE DID NOT MAKE. How is that fair? It is one thing to punish our parents for their actions, but a completely different thing to punish all subsequent generations who have done NOTHING wrong except have such luck to be born in an "undesirable" place. We are being practically "jailed" for "crimes" we did not commit? Blame our parents all you want, but there is no reason to punish us.

How is this unfair? I could go on about how much is unfair to us, but I won't. Think about the exhausted troops overseas now who could use a break. If the military could recruit kids willing and able to serve, then there would be less of a strain on the Armed Forces. Our economy is slumping, and our GDP growth has slowed in the last quarter. One more quarter of contracting GDP and we are officially in a recession. We are educated, some of us already with Bachelor's and Master's degrees. We want to be the generation to make America a powerful force in this new, globalized economy. What is so bad about either of these things? And don't tell me there are plenty of people willing and able, b/c I don't see them taking any action.

I meant "not only Mexico lol." This won't let me do a big post, so excuse the many mini-posts.

The Dream Act isn't a freebie to ALL kids of illegal immigrants: It has a cutoff age, so it would NOT encourage more illegal immigration b/c they would not even be eligible; it has nothing to do w/so-called "anchor babies" since only college-age and military-age kids apply; it only applies if you either graduate from college or serve in the military for a specified amount of time, and true legal status isn't given until either of those are COMPLETED. Many kids aren't willing to go through that, so the exorbitant numbers in certain media is completely unjustified.

We are the cream of the crop, and America would only benefit. We ARE taxpayers, so we would not be taking up money from anyone OR using anyone else's resources but our own. Also the Dream Act DOES NOT give in-state tuition in any way, shape or form. Once we find a way to change our status, then those who qualify through each state's residency requirements will get in-state; those who don't will pay out of state. We are NOT given any federal financial aid.

Sean, answer something for me: Why should a citizen who is from out of state be allowed to pay in-state tuition? That's inherently unfair if you ask me. Once again, in-state tuition is NOT an immigration status matter, but a matter of state residency. I have been a resident of my state for 13 years, so therefore I am entitled to in-state tuition. If you are a state resident, then you should pay in-state; if not, then you should pay out-of-state; it's truly that simple.

I am a non-Mexican Dreamer, and I know for a fact that the Dream Act would only benefit CERTAIN undocumented students who cover six continents, from Poland to Iran to Bangladesh to the Dominican Republic to Senegal, and yes, even Mexico, but only Mexico.
Stop looking at the Dream Act as simply a matter of "illegal immigration," b/c we ourselves did not choose to illegally immigrate here. Instead look at the true issue: young, educated, intelligent, driven kids who are stuck in a miserable neutral. We've been here since Kindergarten or 1st grade, and we've grown up along with the rest of the current generation. You probably come in contact w/some of us and you would NEVER even know.

This is an inherently unfair idea. "Undocumented" kids would be granted in-state tuition, while American citizens who reside outside a given state would not be granted that same privilege. This makes no sense at all.

Neither immigration or citizenship is a right, and illegal immigration certainly isn't. In fact, it is.... well, illegal.

More than half of the global population lives on less than $2 per day. There's a good chance that most of them would love to live in the U.S. to pursue a better life. This is not feasible and the country cannot afford it.

This isn't xenophobic or racist; it's practical and realistic. Mexicans have a very unfair immigration advantage over the citizens of other poor nations; they don't have to cross an ocean to get here. And if they are deported, it's very easy to return shortly thereafter. That is not the case for the citizens of most other nations. Therefore, the problem of illegal immigration is largely a Mexican issue. Again, that is not racist, it's reality.

Citizens of other nations don't get to make U.S. immigration policy. That's the job of he U.S. government -- and granted they have not done a very good job.

If the U.S. needs more immigrants to fill jobs and fuel the economy, the answer is to change the law and allow for more legal immigration. But our government should make the selections; no physically or mentally disabled people, no diseased people, no illiterate people, no criminals, and no elderly who can collect Social Security without having worked here for many years.

The children of illegal immigrants are indeed caught in the middle and are not to be blamed for the actions of their parents any more than anyone else. But to reward illegal immigration in any way is just bad policy.

Yes, not everyone is going to get into the college of their choice. Yes, there will be American citizens who lose spots because of a DREAMER. It will also occur the other way around. Colleges base their admission decision on merit, not legal status, and that is how it should be. I also agree that the government should give more aide to its citizens for college or make it more affordable. We agree on that, and that is something I'll fight for should when I obtain legal status.

OMG, Lonewacko I've been debating you for how many years now? Too many to count. You full well know there is no college discount in the federal DREAM Act. All these years have passed with us arguing online and guess what? I graduated High School, then college and now that that's over, I'm still here and you're still trying to kick me out and lying through your teeth to do it (classy). I've known you for so long it's almost like you're my own bigoted uncle who hates his bastard niece. I still love you lonewacko even if you hate me and even if you have no qualms about lying to kick me out of the country. I'm still around despite your best efforts. How come you forgot to send me a card for my college graduation? Come on, we've known each for so long, that's the least you could do.

Let's do the math.

There are 1000 college discounts/slots.

There are 1001 applicants.

1 of the applicants is a illegal alien (or a former illegal alien who's suddenly been granted amnesty of some kind).

One of those applicants is not going to get a college slot/discount.

If the person who loses out is a U.S. citizen, then that means that an illegal alien/former illegal alien who's suddenly been granted amnesty of some kind took the discount/slot which that U.S. citizen could have received.

If that's too difficult, think of a game of musical chairs.

Don't feel too bad for illegal aliens: they can always appeal to their home countries for college help. U.S. citizens should be able to appeal to their country for college help, but all Brave New Films wants to give them is the shaft.

Lone Wacko, I encourage you to read the post I made above about the DREAM Act. You might see some of your arguments addressed there.

As for your video, it starts off with a faulty premise. Do you have any proof for the allegations it makes?

LoneWacko (yes, how are we supposed to take someone seriously with that name), you have obviously not read the comments and stipulations of the bill. How is the DA related to the Constitution of the United States and how exactly does it devalue citizenship? INFACT, on the contrary, it REQUIRES education and/or military service for citizenship, more than what birthright citizenship commands of Americans that are born here. Therefore, it gives character and basis to the idea of citizenship.

I have to disagree. I don't believe that DREAM Act devalues U.S. citizenship. DREAMERS are some of the most patriotic students I have ever met. We love this country, and we want a chance to help make it a better place. One of the ways to qualify for the DREAM Act is to join the military. They are willing to risk their lives for this country to get a chance for legal status. Because we are in this situation, when we were to get US citizenship, it is something we would never take for granted and would highly value.

The DA lets illegal aliens take college discounts and slots from U.S. citizens. The DA is a direct attack on the concept of citizenship. It devalues U.S. citizenship and no one who supports the Constitution should support the DA.

The effect of the DA is very simple math, as illustrated here:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WZkvEmSy1vk

To clarify something I said below, not all of us currently receive in-state, and even w/passage of the DREAM Act, not all of us would receive in-state if we didn't meet the in-state requirements of a given state.

This isn't some battle; if anyone works hard enough, they can get into college. The only way they'll get "displaced" is if the school finds someone more qualified than they are to admit.

This "taking away spots from citizens" argument is totally unjustified and simply untrue b/c colleges and universities don't base admissions on residency status; there isn't some undocumented immigrant quota to fill that would "displace" other, more qualified people. This isn't affirmative action or anything.

Admissions are based on your merits, so if you're better than a lot of people you'll get in; if not, you won't. It's that simple. The only thing residency determines is the price you'll pay for that college education: if you're a state resident, you pay in-state accordingly, if you're out-of-state, you pay out-of-state accordingly, and etc. What part of this is misleading?

"Lemons, if you paid a in-state tuition at a State college or UC (Cal) school, then your college education was subsidized by American taxpayers. I'm wondering if you went all the way through college with in-state tuition and didn't give a thought of graditude to American taxpayers."

I'm sorry, I just had to say a few things. First of all, you should slow down with the "American taxpayers" stuff, b/c many of us ARE American taxpayers. My money goes exactly where your money goes, so everything I've been able to do has been a result of MY hard work.

Second of all, and most importantly in fact, you seem to be missing the fact that we're not receiving in-state BECAUSE we're undocumented. Undocumented or legal, we'd get in-state tuition EITHER WAY b/c we meet the in-state requirements. SO yes, it's perfectly fair for someone who comes from out of state to pay out-of-state tuition b/c they're from OUT OF STATE!!!

Therefore, in-state only allows us to have what we'd have regardless, b/c we still have to meet the in-state requirements for the love of Whatever!

Oathkeeper's point is that DREAMers have already cost taxpayers (if you ignore the fact that their parents pay taxes as well, much of the time) money. If they are able to regularize their status, attend college, and get a good job, then they can pay that back many times over in their own tax money.

Oathkeeper,
Nobody was talking about taxpayer funding of public high schools. Of course taxes pay for ALL to attend publican high schools, it law, and its a good law. I voted against Prop 187 in California which aimed to make it illegal for any illegal immigrants to use publicly funded programs like schools, MedicAid, food stamps etc. The majority of people in California voted FOR Prop 187. It was cancelled in the courts - rightly.

Michelle, since you are going to bring in "tax payers" money, did you know that we also partook in that by graduating from high school? Plyer v. Doe allows ALL children in the US to receive a FREE public education. Why would you want to throw away such an investment? It goes against all logic.

And Lemons would give that money back with interest by paying taxes to support the baby boomers retirement, funding SS and Medicare/Medicaid, payback the deficit created by needless wars overseas. That can only happen with the DREAM Act.

Btw - Undocumented people pay taxes too. My family, who I will call American taxpayers, paid $16000 in taxes last year (property and business) so the only thing I feel is mad that it is going to fund 'blood for oil' rather than more worthwhile public projects.

I'm not from California and I didn't get in-state tuition. That was your assumption.

Lemons, if you paid a in-state tuition at a State college or UC (Cal) school, then your college education was subsidized by American taxpayers. I'm wondering if you went all the way through college with in-state tuition and didn't give a thought of graditude to American taxpayers.

I am sorry -- Most of these kids are hard-working and would JUMP at a chance to prove themselves to the only country they know as home. We would never take this country for granted and any opportunity it throws our way. I went to community college and then later state schools because I couldn't afford the out-of-state tuition but I pulled off getting an MA at the top of my class. I am only responsible for my hard-work, and thankful for the opportunity and chances that my school admission officers and counselors took on me. All we ask for is an opportunity - not a free education, not welfare, not your taxpaying money. We want the chance to work hard and contribute to this society. Heck, the baby-boomers have more to gain from this as we would be financing their retirement and the many useless wars by paying twice as many taxes.

No one paid for tuition but me and my family Michelle. I don't where you got that idea that the government paid for any of it.

Well, the DREAM Act would not force anybody to pay for these students' educations other than they themselves...so I don't see your issue.

Lemons, I ideally would like to see foreign governments pay for their citizens' college education here. Maybe some do. I would rather see this than pay for people's tuition who are taking spots from Americans at State colleges, whether they stay here or go back after college. I would also like to stop paying for the Iraq War.

So then you're problem isn't with American citizens being displaced, because that's what student visa holders and permanent resident students do.

These DREAMers are not here illegally because they want to be. They had no choice in the matter.

And I don't base my opinions of the USA's domestic and foreign policy on what other countries do.

Michelle, I worked 30-40 hours a week while attending college. I still pulled off an A average with a full course load. I went to a competitive school with a competitive major. I got an average of 3 hours of sleep a night. Nothing comes easy for us. 4 hours of homework isn't that much, in college I used to study on the bus, while walking to class, working out, even while I was sleeping I would play recordings of my lectures (my roommate hated me). But I was determined to do my best. If I had been an American citizen, I would have gotten a full ride but I wasn't going to cry myself to sleep over it. I did what it took to get an education and if your daughter is anything like me ( the fact that she volunteers for the special Olympics is something we already have in common) she will too. Don't sell your daughter short. Blaming us because your daughter didn't get an A is unreasonable to say the least.

I certainly don't mind student visas or immigrants attending colleges, I just don't want to see American citizens turned away for an illegal immigrant to attend on American taxpayer's money. Seriously, do you think Canada does this?

And all the DREAM Act is about is allowing DREAMers, most of who are on the same economic level as working class American citizens, close to (and not even equal to) the same chance that they have to get an education. You realize that you can fight for higher education reform for American citizens without having to throw undocumented students out with the trash at the same time, don't you?

Are you also against student visas? All immigration by people of college age?

taskgirl, dont project whatever you have going on in your head. I'm assuming you don't have kids. I sit here and watch my kids do 4 hours of homework a night and still it is hard to achieve straight a's. My daughter volunteers for Democratic fundraising events and the Special Olympics. Your head is in the sky. Most people who "are not jumping at the chance for a good education" are ringing up your order at Burger King, repairing your BMW, and bussing your table at the Sushi Bar. Look around you, or better yet, look at towns across the country where people are working in factories, ... that was a gross smug remark, that all these working class americans don't care to "jump at the chance for a good education."

Thank you for all your support and for giving as a space to voice our stories. That alone, means a lot to me, and other DREAMers across the country I am sure.

I don't see any compelling reason for denying any student the CHANCE to attend college, get a job, pay taxes and contribute to the American economy. On the contrary, it is ludicrous not to, since by ignoring the DREAM Act, you would contribute to creating a permanent underclass of stateless and disgruntled Americans who may resort to illegal means to support themselves. Now what good can come out of that? Keep the children in school - It is simple enough.

I don't understand where this comes from. Don't be bitter just because YOUR kids are not good enough to get into college. ANYONE can get into college if they just try hard enough. Dreamers are not taking spots from anyone. Did you know only 25% of Americans have a BA degree? Obviously people are not jumping at the chance for a good education anymore. It seems like these days all college is a chance to party - sorry your daughter won't get to be on Girls Gone Wild at spring break..

Lemons,
That was a pretty ugly comment "Michelle is alot older..." how old I am has nothing to do with it. I'm glad you had such an easy experience through college. I am hearing from families of all the declines their good-student kids are getting. And I have researched lately for my own kids who hope to attend college in a couple of years. I'm not sure where money will come from, but they are good students, and won't mind working. But I will feel angry if colleges accept illegal immigrants on my tax dollars, and decline them. There are thousands of illegal immigrants attending on tax payer's money every year. I can't imagine my child can attend Canadian colleges on discounted tuition, while displacing Canadian citizens, or European colleges.

Okay, Michelle... you are now talking about other issues here. Suppose that we and our uber-excellent GPAs did not have to compete with other students... do you really think that colleges would suddenly be forced to accept someone with a mediocre GPA? Are you going to make them accept you? i hardly doubt that elite schools like UCLA would take anyone who's obviously not worth the investment. That's their problem, not ours.

How did this turn into a B versus A student discussion? I think Michelle is just a lot older and not as informed about the college process as those of us who are more recent grads.